The Spiteful, Ego-Filled Thread That Does Nothing- Post Away

[ozarkmountainman]

The whole "pregnant" thing has never played well with me. It was brought up in '07 by Stan Berkbuegler as a reason to go back to the shorter season, at least concerning bobcat. A STUPID supposition. Like Trevis said, although spring mating/births are the norm, 'cats can have kittens ANY time of the year.

A road-kill female bobcat in July is done having kittens, period. Her legacy ends. Same as if she's shot by a deer hunter in November or trapped in January.

As far as the antis and "pregnant animals", I'm not getting into that argument.

Dale

[ccreech]

Aug 4, 2014 7:06:39 GMT -6 ozarkmountainman said:

John, I HATE otters... Because I LOVED my smallmouth bass (and largemouth, spots, crappie, sunfish, suckers, etc. etc. etc. etc.). I'd trade those otter any day to bring back my creeks to where they were fifteen years ago. In a heartbeat.

Otter are vermin, no different than coyotes. They need to be legal all year 'round with any method. If you don't think so, then you don't have them in your area yet.

Or you're not a creek fisherman.

Dale

Sounds like you got some otter trapping hotspots Dale!! Do you catch a bunch?

I guess our opinions differ. Otter are my favorite critter to trap. 42 was my best year, but I spend way more time catching coon than I put into the otter. I stock borrow pits along the levees here with green sunfish so the otter will come to them. Works pretty good until it floods. They are a good time in my opinion.

Besides.........I've never sold a fish for $140!!!

[krank]

So getting back on subject....I want all fur to last till Feb 15th and muskrat to last as long as beaver (like other states) and I havent seen any good come of the reintroduction of otter. All the otter I ever caught got confiscated by the MDOC (theres a clue about how long I have stayed away from water trapping.)

[ozarkmountainman]

The otter were originally stocked here. The only reason we don't have more is the lack of water (habitat).

Money over fish? Not even a question in my book. I don't need money. It's sad.

Dale

[bigjohn]

Accually Dale,they were restocked not stocked. Otter were here before we were and they didn't decimate the fish populations. What's to say that giggers aren't the reason for decline of smallmouth(I don't think that either).Many things have gone on since the restocking of otters back into our wilds and I don't think anyone thing has more to do with it than another.

[ozarkmountainman]

John, yes- they were STOCKED. The otter we have in MO not are NOT the otter we had here in the past. I thought everyone knew this. They came from Louisiana and are a SOUTHERN sub-species that have several definite differences from the Northern otter that are indigenous to our state. The PRIMARY difference, and the one that causes the most issues is that the Southern otter have more babies. As many as two to three TIMES the babies the Northern otter have. Good for the $-lovin' trapper, bad for the environment. I've personally watched an otter with six babies- I know a reliable farmer who once saw seven... The Southern otter are also reported to be more voracious than their Northern cousins. I believe it myself.

I'm surprised you'd question this John. Even with your obvious love for the otter the evidence as to what they can do to a fishery is well documented. Just ask Clay about his otter nuisance calls.

As for proof- how about finding whole pools of water completely void of fish literally overnight? Bass, sunfish and sucker carcasses laying everywhere with a bite taken out of them, or just skin and scales ripped off? It happened to me. Otter kill fish for FUN. They EAT crawdads.

Sure, there are extenuating circumstances involved, namely drought the last six or seven years, and the filling in of gravel in the creeks. But this also has happened time and time again over the years. I've seen these aforementioned holes of water in "my" creeks emptied of fish OVERNIGHT. Most of this happened in the late 90's- the last good fishing I had in any area creek was years ago.

Ask a fishin' guide on the Meremec, Gasconade, St. Francois River, etc. what THEY think of otter... Or ask a fish farmer that has ponds within a mile or so of otter territory what HE thinks. Just ask 'em.

I said earlier that we had limited habitat. The three creeks I'm mostly talking about rarely have any water over four feet deep. Most of the "holes" are less than thirty yards long, and some are considerably smaller than that. But these holes used to TEEM with bass up to three or four pounds or so, sunfish as larger as your hand, and even catfish. And suckers. I know of one deep hole that has keeper bass in it, or it did two years ago. ONE HOLE out of hundreds.

I don't know much about politics. Deer farms and whitetail regs are a little bit above me, and I don't mind. I let smarter and better folks figure these issues out. But I do know some biology. I understand ecosystems, ESPECIALLY the ones I'm part of and live around every day. I don't believe that there are breeding pairs of mountain lion in every county of the state. I like FACTS. And a FACT is that I know what the otter have done to the creeks and ponds in my little part of the state.

We need to get this thread back to the subject matter though, and see if anyone has the balls to try to get the proposal for a longer/adjusted fur season before the MDC.

Dale

[ozarkmountainman]

The only good otter is a dead otter.





Dale

[trkyslyr]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAA


YEAH.... YUP..... What he said....

[bigjohn]

Yup loves me some otter!
Dale,it doesn't matter(and yes I'm aware were they came from)the origin of the otter that were brought in.You introduce a species into a new habitat that is perfect for them,they're going to do what Mother Nature intended them to do,they're going to repopulate it.Other than man,they have no major predators here,so they thrive.
Farmers are notorious for having animal complaints,even if it's just a coyote crossing their pasture.Sure,they take fish in ponds,but I've yet to see one cleaned out.
Clay and I are blessed to live in areas of very high otter numbers.Last year I took 17 otter out of one stretch of ditch less than 100 yards long and guess what,it still had fish in it.
If your creek has less habitat,you'll have less otter.
Our creeks are getting slammed by the invasion of asian carp,so I hope the otter numbers increase three fold(along with the price lol)
Habitat destruction has a bigger impact on wildlife numbers than other wildlife IMO

[krank]

Bad thing about otter is the kill for the fun of it. In two days they will kill 100 fish and leave them on the banks of a pond and then move on.
My great great wrote of trapping otter on the Grand in 1840 but that was before the Corp of Engineers and the general unbalancing of our eco system. I dont think they fit in the food chain anywhere. Would rather have the mink back.

[bigjohn]

Heck Krank,I've seen where mink have caught bullheads and frogs from a hole in the ice and left them around the hole.
Something alot of folks don't know,but the female otter will catch fis,chew off the tail,and release it to teach her young how to catch fish.Animals kill to keep up their skills.Many times I've seen where fox or coyotes have caught mive or voles and played with them in the snow,then left them.Cat's the same.
Remember they are animals.They don't have the thought processes that humans(well most)have.I don't believe any animal kills for fun.

[ozarkmountainman]

Really. Hmmm...

Since the almighty dollar is so important to ya'll, I guess the otter are a great thing. Glad your creeks have a bunch of fish and I'm an ignorant bastard.

The thread goes back to the subject at hand.

Dale

[ccreech]

If your gonna vent on a furbearer Dale, pick possums!!
Seriously, I think the problem here is you all are arguing over North Missouri vs. South Missouri otter habitat. Again, apples and oranges.

I can only speak of my experiences of both. I'm sure as heck not an expert on South Missouri streams. I always thought they were a fine place to visit. Never cared for fishing or trapping them. I like mud between my toes............

When I was a young Agent, I was stationed in Ste. Genevieve County, which is located between St. Louis and Cape Girardeau. Some darn nice clear water/gravel/Ozark type streams in the county. I was there from 1993 to 1995. Otter season was opened in 1996. The Establishment, Saline, and River Aux Vasse creeks were there to name a few. There were next to no otter there while I was there. Ste. Genevieve County had a tremendous amount of trappers, and some dang good ones. I had zero accidental otter catches while I was there. No otter sign was found. They just hadn't made it to that part of the state yet. The locals all talked of the tremendous fishing, mostly smallmouth, goggleye, and suckers, that these creeks had in the good old days. The creeks had few holes anymore due to them filling with gravel. There were a few holes, much as you describe Dale, but not many, and they were filling in with gravel at a tremendous pace. Talking with the guys down there now, it sounds like a keeper smallmouth is as hard to find as a quail! I can see where otter in one of those gravel choked holes could hammer the fish in them. But those fisheries went to crap with zero otter. They have a few otter there now. They catch less than 10 a year in the whole dang county.
Anyway, that's my experience with clear water streams. Pretty limited really, but it gives me an idea of the vast differences vs. North Missouri.
I have spent the majority of my life hunting, trapping, fishing, and working on North Missouri waters of all kinds. I feel much more confident voicing my opinion about the otters and their habits up here.
I do not feel that otter can or do hurt fish in Northern Missouri streams. Too much habitat, too many fish, and the waters too murky. I have been on many otter complaint calls over the years in this county. Two of them were valid complaints. Both were small ponds that had zero cover and were full of pellet fed channel cat. Both were in the wintertime. The fish were slow moving in the cold water and the otter were killing the snot out of them, until they ran into some well placed Belisles. Most of the otter complaints I've went on have been perceived and not real. I went on 7 otter calls this spring that were winterkilled fish that coons were dragging up on the bank and eating. Many times a landowner has called after seeing a critter swimming around in their pond and swear it was an otter and it turns out to be rats or a beaver.
In my opinion 90+ percent of the farm ponds in North Missouri are underfished. There isn't nearly enough fish harvested by the owners out of them. If these ponds have good fish habitat and a balanced fish population, I don't believe that otter hurt them one bit. In some cases they help them I believe. I have ponds that I kill 3 to 7 otter a winter out of that are the best fishing ponds that you can find.
I know that otter can hurt fish in some situations, but I see them as no different than coon in the sweet corn, beaver plugging tubes, or groundhogs in the barn. Deal with the problem animals and move on. Country folks have been doing that since the beginning of time.
Most years my county leads the state in otter catch. We have killed a few thousand otter in this county since season was opened because we have a lot of trappers and quite a few otter. One guys vermin is another guys favorite critter. That's what makes the world go round I reckon.
I don't like money, but I do need it. That's another reason I like otter!

[bigjohn]

Man has done more harm to the environment than animals ever could.One thing I've noticed anytime I've be down south is the huge piles of gravel piled where they've dredge the creeks for it.Displacing that gravel changes the creeks farther down the line effecting the fish and fishing.

After the 93 floods,farmers here got money from the government to dredge the drainage ditched,which they did.This dredging and removal caused the banks to become unstabile to the point muskrats holes and runs would just cave in or silt in.We now have less habitat for them,so not many rats.

When I first started trapping the river bottoms years ago,farming on the river side of the levees didn't exist.There were potholes after potholes teaming with wildlife.Waterfowl hunting was tremendous,trapping was great,as well as fishing.Now there only a handfull of holes left,so sad,but it's a sign of money over wildlife.

Our area is full of watersheds and ponds,but like Clay stated,most are underfished for one reason or another.I've fished ponds that farmers don't let others fish and some the fish are just plain stunted.Catfish with normal size heads but bodies the size of alot smaller fish.Otter eating fish out of them could only help the survivers grow to their potential.So otter aren't all that bad.

[ozarkmountainman]

Back to the subject fellers.

Dale

[trkyslyr]

I like to catch otters... but they are hard on fish..... BJ, if you aint seen a pond cleaned out from otters, you aint lookin too hard...

[bigjohn]

Don,we probably have 3 or more times the number of farm ponds in this part of the country than you fellers down south. Most all our ponds have an abundance of cover,unless they were built specifically for raising catfish.

If you read Clay's post,you see he's only had a couple of ponds that serious damage was done and his county has more otter than mine.Farmers here shoot the heck out of em aany time they show up.That and otter are extremly nomadic.Just way too much food around here for them to camp out very long.

The drainage ditches in the bottoms are plumb full of fish and freeze up confines them to deeper holes. Guess what? After the ice clears,they're still full of fish.

[ozarkmountainman]

Hello??? SUBJECT AT HAND. Do we want a different season length? What do we want to happen? How can we make this happen?

Focus children.

Dale

[trapshooter25]

I think that land season should end on march 1st and water till march 31st. This will allow people in different parts of the state to make the most of the season. Like up north it is colder longer than southern mo. So it gives the trapper the decision on when they want to stop trapping when the fur isn't good anymore, but in other parts of the state the fur can still be good allowing the trappers there to keep going. But anyways the season is too short and needs to be changed.

[trapshooter25]

Oh and we have a bunch of farm ponds that used to have a ton of fish.
Used to till the otters came and cleaned them out.