Scents

[robertw]

Well....you can listen to those that make their living in the field doing what the armchair experts say can't be done or you you can listen to the arm chair experts. Your choice.

Yeah, spraying urine on an M44....why am I not sueprised.

[horntagger]

Nov 12, 2014 9:56:36 GMT -6 robertw said:

Well....you can listen to those that make their living in the field doing what the armchair experts say can't be done or you you can listen to the arm chair experts. Your choice.

Yeah, spraying urine on an M44....why am I not sueprised.

Robertw what lures or bait do you suggest then? Very interested.

[bigjohn]

A good quality gland lure and good quality pee and your set.

[ozarkmountainman]

There are so many decent gland lures, and I think Robert will share. Some good ones, for me, are-

Hawbakers Red Fox 100 and Wiley Red 500
Carmen's Pro's Choice and Canine Call
Caven's Canine Force
Grahams Enticer

These are a few that are readily available. I use a lot of different stuff because I like to change-up between sets, AND I just like to experiment. It takes YEARS to be sure of the good ones, then a lure company changes its formula. And I use urine at probably 90% of my sets, separate from the lure. I could never be comfortable trappin' without pee, even if I had to pee on the set myself.


D.W. Verts- Bigfoot Trapper

[adccoyote]

Ozark and Robert the urine with 'm44 was a comparison thing nothing more. everyone is free to chose as they wish, to me urine is not an attractant per say as in the fall, well coyotes pee just to pee, the reactions to it and a multiple compounded lure are night and day. same with a good formulated bait, in fact the toughest as any lure maker will tell you is getting consistent results for a m-44 bait due to the limited amounts of reaction needed to get lots of pulls. I was fortunate to be around one of the best getter men in the game, he has taken m-44's to an extreme level in the past 30 years and has killed a massive pile of coyotes on them. There are some great old time m44 recipes and some tried turned out to be great for traps and not so good for m44 application.

urine is more of a hey others have been there thing, the studies have shown reactions to it versus other products and getting less reaction from it well is just the facts. They timed duration of activity and reactions to it, it ranked lowered then other lures used in that study, again take it for what it is worth or not. There are parts of urine that have a higher value in it than the whole of urine, then using of urines from various coyotes sex and age. then there is the fact that certain chemicals in urine have a super short in environment life span as well. Where as lures have fixatives to maintain some of these chemicals found in them.

I have trapped enough coyotes without urine and with urine to know it isn't a real game changer on a fresh set, I have the opinion that it is better as a remake additive for a few reasons.

Same as with gland lure it has a time and place but on younger coyotes who will investigate plenty of things and seeing more back foot catches when using gland lure, I save them for later in the year and a stout gland lure. There are a few I like for sure. 50-60 percent of an annual harvest is young of year coyotes in the fur game, plenty of good attractants out there to harvest them and older coyotes as well.

I kept lots of records on attractants to see what ones to keep in a rotation and which ones to discard.

I set a lot of flat sets in my days due to the ground out west being super hard and areas almost impossible to make a deep hole set,deep meaning 6" or more even with a drill and bit. Flat sets are great but a good DH meaning deep and narrow to me are tough to beat in the fall time.

Armchair expert ok?................ I am fine with my background and abilities but thanks Robert. I heard from a few guys you are making a claim about scorching coyotes from one November to another. By just foot trapping in ND? I say go get um but I am willing to bet In the spring there are active dens and dispersal taking place come mid to end December and on into breeding season. Your 20x20 block so a micro chunk of the entire state....... Keeping coyotes out of a small area is done a lot keeping coyotes from moving into vacant areas that have a tendency to hold coyotes is something all together different. Coyote communicate in many forms and howling is one they use a lot your 20x20 might be low now but give it some time and fill in will take place. Even during heavy use years of 1080 which far more labor friendly than traps you still had avoidance and fill in to a degree and those bait stations where used over a much larger area than 20x20.

I was fortunate in my years doing ADC year round to be around some very good coyote hands and we each leaned things from the others, countless stories of things some have said are impossible to do as well, yet they where done on a consistent basis so they become more of a norm, but a coyote just doesn't change its behavioral instincts because of trapper A or B working them that is how they survive. The steel trap can catch any coyote I do believe that but as a year round population reduction tool by itself? Other tools have a better time frame of use that is a fact. I could go into more detail but will leave that for those that have interest in such.

Too think many of carmens lures today are anything close to what they where in the 70's 80's and early 90's ? canine call today is nothing like the original recipe used years ago, the color and odor have totally changed , same can be said for others as ingredients have gone up and some harder to find and trying to make a profit after buying out a lure business I see it a lot from other makers as well.. I used to talk with Fuller Laugaman a few times each year on the phone to think what John Hughes is making is anything close to what fuller did? No way not even close. I haven't bought big sky lures in awhile. I am lucky to have some old stuff sitting around to compare and not close old canine call to new is just one of them. trails end totally different. The good carmens lure IMO come from his pro line, more costly and far less produced but worth the extra hassle to find and purchase again IMO.

Working the same ranches year round, change up of lures is needed along with sets types and locations to a degree, running lots of snares in the winter worked for me as it gave them a break from traps. Spring/summer far more calling and denning calling was something I used heavy at that time of year due to production and selection of coyotes taken. The more tools one uses the better.

Getting off topic and we could start an entire thread on year round predator control. For the benefit of wither livestock or wildlife goes.

[adccoyote]

I am sure none of you get bored but some reading in depth stuff. Again a good series of studies is to find the common occurrences and forget the stuff that doesn't occur as commonly.

ucce.ucdavis.edu/files/repositoryfiles/ca3903p4-62858.pdf


digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1066&context=gpwdcwp

[ozarkmountainman]

I agree totally on the lure's not being the same as in "the day", I put that in my post, and actually Carman was the one I was thinkin' about.

I've never trapped outside of MO. Probably never will, and I have no doubt that the animals have differences from East to West. But we are on a MISSOURI website here, and although we welcome folks from anywhere (I think Waddell is from Mars, myself) we started this site for MISSOURI trappers, so the exchange of information could/would/should directly apply to any of the MISSOURI trappers situations. I don't give a diddly-BLEEP about M-44 studies or what works on the high prairie or the Badlands. I just know what works for me, and has since the late 1970's.

I get a kick with you and Robert bouncin' off each other. Trappers are independent cusses and it's gonna happen and as long as it's kept reasonably civil and there's stuff for folks to learn coming out of it, then it's all fine. But I am also VERY aware of Roberts' accomplishments. I also know he has never held anything back from me if I had a question. And I'm thinkin' me and him probably trap a lot alike. Yep, he's proud of what he's done and can do. He lacks nothin' in confidence. On the other hand, there IS more than one way to skin a coyote.

Meanwhile, when I trap myself for K-9's, and when I teach others to do the same, I'll keep mentioning that urine is a very important part of my repertoire. It's the deal maker for me, especially for multiple catches at the same location. Which brings us back to the oringal question...


D.W. Verts- Bigfoot Trapper

[ozarkmountainman]

"I have trapped enough coyotes without urine and with urine to know it isn't a real game changer on a fresh set, I have the opinion that it is better as a remake additive for a few reasons."

And I'll agree to that also, but I still mix in flat sets with gland/pee, and scent posts with only pee with my dirt holes at every location. And for me, BAITS catch a lot of non-targets, too.

D.W. Verts- Bigfoot Trapper

[adccoyote]

Fair enough Ozark ! See I have the same thoughts on urine and non targets too many for me to worry about much urine use age on fresh sets. if you want a great coyote bait with less non target appeal try some Showtime great bait and not super loud but coyotes and fox and bobcats seem to,like it real well.

I reference my days in SD as I studied and killed coyotes every week year round for a period of years, they do relate to Missouri, Iowa and other states I have trapped, called,snared in and various parts of other states.

One thing we can agree upon I think is coyotes are coyotes as far as inate behaviors go. At least that is what I observed through the years. I have spent many years studying coyotes and they are my critter have been for many,many years. I do admit to anal tendancies and I have a vast collection of coyote research from many authors I have found them to be more valuable than any book on trapping coyotes goes or for that matter the bulk of videos as well. Too many all set the same picture, trap choice, dye choice, set choices, etc.

I took great pride in my work and I had nothing to sell or try to profit from it to date. I cared about my producers and to see they took to the sale barn lamb crops above 110 percent each a october. These people where my neighbors and friends, our kids went to school together, we went to church together and they intrusted me to help keep them in business.

I agree as well far more than one way to do things, trappers will argue best trap, best anchor, best lure,best bait etc.

[vikesbull]

adccoyote where in SD are you from and where in Mo did you end up?

Oh and what is your name?

[horntagger]

Thanks again for all the information. Will try to get my act together before I leave with the rest of the Orange Army.

Now here is something, I not sure what you think about it, but might be the worse thing in the world to do. But for me, it has worked me and put a hurt on coyote and bobcats.

I notice that when coyote is carrying a fawn that the legs are sticking out in front of the eye sight. Not sure it matters but it just might stir up some type of feeding trigger.

So each year now during bow and gun season I save all the deer legs from below first joint to end of hoof. So about 8 to 12 inches. I use them as bait/eye candy. Seem like I can have a set in and it may be hit or miss, but after I put a hoof in play, I have caught coyotes/bobcats within 48 hours.

Plus it just one more thing I can use off of the deer I kill. Bad or Good it works for me.

[ozarkmountainman]

I try not to let any coyotes carry fawns, myself.

D.W. Verts- Bigfoot Trapper

[adccoyote]

Eye appeal for both species can be a great benefit at times, the only down side to it one can attract more non targets as well. We weigh out the benefits over the draw backs and do what works.

I have tried some off the wall thinking at times in the summer trying to catch a killing coyote, a few things have worked again and again so maybe they were not so crazy after all.

Good luck and hope you have a good season.

[dasher]

horntagger is the lure and baits you used working for you if so then thats all you need to do add somepee dont add somepee give them a try see how it works for ya me just mice with a little skunkjunk is my favorite but dosnt work everywhere so i use others till i find that nitch then letem have it see your pic looks like your doin all right just sayin

[adccoyote]

Lived in a few areas in SD through the years, been all over the state I worked ADC in NW SD. I now live east of KC aways.

Sure Randy B

[login]

I make my own pee, and I am an arm chair expert.