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Post by robertw on Apr 17, 2013 12:25:06 GMT -6
Evertrap;"The bait sellers and fish farmers were called to one committee meeting after another to wear them down, then the MDC was called to a meeting by state reps and was told to make a decision within a week (this week) and quit running these people around. Haven't heard the outcome yet." (dated April 9th)
Anybody heard anything on this?
Did the MDC thumb their nose at our elected representitves again?
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Post by robertw on Apr 18, 2013 10:07:57 GMT -6
I am being told the MDC is having a meeting on the 29th concerning the crawfish ban. No public comments will be allowed / taken at this meeting. Apparently they are not going to allow any sale of crawfish except for the green crawfish. This basically eliminates the sale of ALL crawfish under 2 1/2" as these crawfish have to be mature to determine which ones they are.
A friend of mine that runs a bait shop said this knocks out 60-75% of what is currently being sold as bait (what is commonly used to rod and reel fish). This is a big blow to the aquaculture industry in Missouri. (as explained to me)
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Post by tjm on Apr 20, 2013 10:14:34 GMT -6
This doesn't affect fishing; we can still catch and use our own crawdads for bait? It addresses the importation of invasive species? Bait dealers and aquaculture operations have said it would affect less than 1% of thier business dollars? Has to do with SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH and preservation of our streams/waters?
How many of our elected representives are qualified stream ecologists? Aren't these elected representives the ones being bought and controlled by lobbyists?
I saw nothing about this on the published agenda for the April MDC meeting, but there is a slot for "Report of the Regulations Committee (no action items)".
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Post by robertw on Apr 20, 2013 18:37:34 GMT -6
Less than 1% huh? Then why have these aqualculture people and the bait shops been calling their state representives asking for help with this? It is my understanding most of these crawfish are raised right here in Missouri, not imported.
Local bait shop in Kirksville tells me this regulation affects over 60% of his crawfish sales and without that percentage and a market for them it reduces the availability of the larger crawfish as an end result as well.
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Post by tjm on Apr 20, 2013 20:54:32 GMT -6
robertw, just going by what was reported back awhile ago. I have never personaly seen crawdads for sale for bait and all of the folks I've ever seen use them caught their own. I've fished for over fifty years and until this came up, I was not even aware that there was a market for them.
I will say this though, because I advocate trapping laws founded on science rather than emotion I would be the worst kind of hypocrite if I did not demand the same be true of hunting and fishing laws.
If I had a bait shop and sold crawdads and my total sales of crawdads accounted for 1.1% of my total sales then 90% of my crawdad sales would be less than 1% of my business. If I was a crawdad farmer and didn't know what kind of seed I planted I'd not consider myself much of a farmer, kinda like waiting til the crop comes up to see if I planted corn or alfafa; yet you report that these aqua farmers don't know, so it may well be that they didn't know what percentage of their business it was or perhaps they just guessed when they told MDC that.
It really has no interest to me except setting a precident of involving the politicians and thereby opening the door for all kinds of AR involvement. That and the posible loss of native species due to introduction of invasive species.
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Post by robertw on Apr 20, 2013 21:16:47 GMT -6
Those involved with this trade obviously feel very strongly about the issue to have to reach out to their state Representitves.
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Post by tjm on Apr 20, 2013 22:22:55 GMT -6
"Those involved with this trade obviously feel very strongly about the issue to have to reach out to their state Representitves."
I bet they do, that is called emotion. If they can refute the MDC with sound science I'll be on their side. If it is a big business there must be some studies done that they can and should use. Ag colleges burn alot of money doing studies, if there hasn't been any on aqua farming they should get a few started. If they can certify that all they raise are of a desirable species, maybe some compromise could be achieved, but just to say I want to sell what I have because I want to and having it pased on that basis is not being responsible to our childrens future.
Like I said I never knew you could buy crawdad bait, and I do not one species from another; but, I have seen the local crawdads change from one species to a different one over the last thirty years or so and the mussels have disapeared; something that came down stream from Ar., I have believed; but it may be from imported bait. Does this change have any effect on the fish or fur? I do not know. Maybe I should.
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Post by bigjohn on Apr 21, 2013 8:13:16 GMT -6
I can't see the MDC trying to intentionally hurt the bait business by banning crawdad sells.I mean,what would be it for them to do so,other than to protect our existing wildlife? It only takes a few unscrupulous individuals to really screw things up. Any time an invasive creature is introduced into a suitable habitat,it quickly spreads.Look at the Asian and Silver carp. Within 20 years,these fish have went from invasition of the south to threating the fisheries of the Great Lakes. What takes evolution thousands of years to accomplish,man has caused it to happen in just a few years.Profits have become more important than the health of our planet on alot of different fronts.If folks that buy bait from bait shops can't get crawdads,they'll just buy something else.The ones that are diehard crawdad users will siene their own bait.I don't believe I've seen a handfull of bait shops that have even carried them,myself.
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Post by robertw on Apr 25, 2013 21:07:25 GMT -6
I spoke with a bait shop owner today. He told me live crawfish sales were 25% of his total live bait sales. He also expained to me that last year the three biggest aquaculture farmers / suppliers showed the MDC the paper work on #3.6 million dollars worth of crawfish produced and sold in 2011.
With this regulation going into effect, what are these aquaculture people suppose to do with this years crawfish production?
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Post by bigjohn on Apr 26, 2013 8:48:13 GMT -6
Can they not sell them as food product? Just curious or is the cost of producing them to eating size cost prohibitive?
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Post by robertw on Apr 26, 2013 19:12:07 GMT -6
Yes, it is cost prohibitive here in Missouri, plus it takes a couple of years to get them that size.
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Post by tjm on Apr 27, 2013 3:41:14 GMT -6
Robert, your post has caused education on my part about a problem that I was only vaguely aware of, thanks.
The info I found on aquaculture of crawdads was mostly generated by southern Universities pertaining to raising of crawdads for food. Apparently not much of the industry is bait.
Short version of a hundred pages or so; crawdads hatch in about three weeks, reach harvestable size (for food) in three to four months, and live no more than three years.
"Crawfish can increase 15% in length and 40% in
weight with each molt if they are properly fed and
water conditions remain good."
Read several articals about the situation that were circulated by the Farm Bureau; none the articals gave hard numbers, all the articals were emotional appeals.
From the MDC website; I found;
"that more than one-quarter of bait shops were selling crayfish species that already were illegal under previous regulations."
"bait shops were selling crayfish obtained from outside of Missouri and that some shops were illegally selling crayfish collected from the wild."
"field studies have documented 25 instances of crayfish invasions in Missouri. Those invasions have caused declines of six native species"
Now this is where we all shout enforce the current law, don't make new. If the bait dealers and aquaculture folks don't know the difference, most law enforcement officers won't either; so let's give them a law they can enforce, it's easy to tell no crawdads from some crawdads.
Also came accross this; "invasive crayfish have been shown to out-compete native crayfish, compete with game fish for food, destroy aquatic plant beds used as spawning grounds and nurseries for game fish, and are known to also eat fish eggs. This combined with reduced spawning habitat and food means fewer and smaller fish. A study of lakes in Vilas County, Wisc., documented resource damage from invasions of rusty crayfish of more than $1 million annually."
Now as I said previously, I was unaware of the selling of crawdads for bait (still a bit astonished), but I have personally complained to several MDC employees (wildlife and enforcement) about the changes in the local streams; loss of crawdads, loss of mussels, different type of crawdads, loss of flatheads/replacement by channels,loss of bullheads. Been doing it for twenty years, they all said they'd let the fishery people know about it, maybe they finely did.
I still suspect the local situation comes downstream from Arkansas,but...
Saw somthing in a La. report about crawdads and zebra mussels, I didn't read it all, but if moving crawdads around moves other invasive species around it aint good.
As I understand it, at present the aquaculture producers can still export their crawdads; so I'd recomend they look into that or growing the crawdads a couple months longer and selling to the food market.
When I first heard of the big deal crawdad ban I was sorta indifferent; never saw any for sale, never bought any, never knew anyone who had so it can't be that big a deal. As I have read more I find myself becoming a proponent of the ban and wondering if more stringent controlls might be called for.
Is aquaculture regulated at all by the USDA?
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Post by robertw on Apr 27, 2013 17:16:09 GMT -6
tjm;"Short version of a hundred pages or so; crawdads hatch in about three weeks, reach harvestable size (for food) in three to four months"
You ever eat crawfish?
Do you really believe the big crawfish reach full size maturity in 3-4 months in this state?
Southern states are an entirely different cup of tea, longer growing seasons with different water temperatures.
No one that I know of would raise a big stink about shutting down the importation of crawfish, the issue is not allowing the sale of crawfish raised here in Missouri.
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Post by trkyslyr on Apr 27, 2013 19:17:01 GMT -6
Now this is where we all shout enforce the current law, don't make new. If the bait dealers and aquaculture folks don't know the difference, most law enforcement officers won't either; so let's give them a law they can enforce, it's easy to tell no crawdads from some crawdads. Did your really just say that!!!  ?? I agree with the first one, ENFORCE WHAT"S THERE... BUT, To say that we should make new laws. taking away freedoms allowed to us now, just because somebody wants to be LAZY and "Make it EASY" for our taxdollar PAID public SERVANTS!!!!!!! REALLY!!!!!! This is the kind of BS that is RUINING OUR COUNTRY!!!!!!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE I JUST READ THIS!!!!!!! Our Agents are PAID to know this stuff!!!!! So, How many of those Violators were actually cited and CONVICTED? ? That's the TRUE QUESTION...... |
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Post by bigjohn on Apr 27, 2013 19:54:49 GMT -6
Don,there are only about 2 agents for every county,on an average. These guys have to check numerous folks thru out the year to enforce the regs. This is not including all the calls they get at all hours to report possible violations, questions on regs,mountain lion sighting,and helping with other law enforcment issues. To call them lazy is a very unfair assessment of them.
How many concerned citizens know the difference,would you? I know I don't.How many concerned citizens would report a bait dealer for selling the wrong ones,if they knew it would dry up their bait supplies?
Wouldn't it be a shame to jepordize a whole fishery just so a few individuals could make a buck? Look at what the python and boa constrictors are doing to the ecosystem of the Florida everglades.If pet stores had been banned to sell them,they wouldn't be wrecking the havic on the animals that reside there.Once Pandora's box has been opened,it takes much more money to reverse it than would have been lost in revenue to a few individuals.
It boils down to what's good for the whole ,instead of the few.
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Post by robertw on Apr 27, 2013 20:37:53 GMT -6
What percentage of crawfish sold in Missouri were ever imported?
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Post by tjm on Apr 27, 2013 23:15:31 GMT -6
tjm;"Short version of a hundred pages or so; crawdads hatch in about three weeks, reach harvestable size (for food) in three to four months" You ever eat crawfish? Do you really believe the big crawfish reach full size maturity in 3-4 months in this state? Southern states are an entirely different cup of tea, longer growing seasons with different water temperatures. No one that I know of would raise a big stink about shutting down the importation of crawfish, the issue is not allowing the sale of crawfish raised here in Missouri. Ate crayfish a couple times; they must not have been done right cause I was not impressed. Read four studies and they all said the same so have no reason to believe otherwise. |
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Post by tjm on Apr 27, 2013 23:40:13 GMT -6
What percentage of crawfish sold in Missouri were ever imported? One of the numerous questions I want the answers to, here are a few others: % of bait shops in Mo. that sell crayfish? % of business on average that is bait sales? % of bait sales on average that is crayfish? % of state wide bait sales is crayfish? Number of crayfish farmers in Mo.? Number of acres on average devoted to crayfish per farm? Total numbers or pounds of crayfish produced in Mo. on average per year? % of farm income in Mo. derived from aquaculture? % of income from aquaculture is derived from crayfish? Does the average crayfish producer have other sources of farm income? Have any studies been done in Mo. on the feasability of crayfish farming? If yes were these studies done prior to the establishment of crayfish farming or after? Is crayfish farming in Mo. done in conjunction with other crops, ie soybeans or rice, or as a monoculture? Are crayfish certified to be free from disease (crayfish plague) and are the waters in which crayfish cultured and or transported certified to be free of invasive species such as zebra mussel eggs or larva? Where do the crayfish producers get their brood stock? Is the broodstock certified in any manner? What training do the producers have in distinguishing the species? With more than 300 species in the U.S. and only 4 species legal, shouldn't both the producers and the bait operators be experts? Are crayfish producers subject to USDA regulation? Are crayfish producers subject to Mo. Dept. of Ag. regulation? Do the bait shops maintain records of where and from whom Crayfish are obtained? Do the producers maintain records of where and to whom they sell crayfish? Are the baitshops and crayfish producers willing to fund a stream recovery opperation if it becomes neccessary? Put funds in escrow now? Please answer any or as many as you can; I could not find these answers, but I am not very good on the computer. And I only spent a few hours looking for justification of continued crayfish sales. The only mention I could find sugests that less than 100A of crayfish aquaculture in Mo., and surely that is not enough to raise such a fuss? Point me to some factual info. I did note in one of the Farm Bureau articals that they mentioned that neighboring states Ok. and Ar. subsidized crayfish culture, almost as if they felt Mo. should also subsidize it. |
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Post by tjm on Apr 28, 2013 0:17:56 GMT -6
Now this is where we all shout enforce the current law, don't make new. If the bait dealers and aquaculture folks don't know the difference, most law enforcement officers won't either; so let's give them a law they can enforce, it's easy to tell no crawdads from some crawdads. Did your really just say that!!! ?? I agree with the first one, ENFORCE WHAT"S THERE... BUT, To say that we should make new laws. taking away freedoms allowed to us now, just because somebody wants to be LAZY and "Make it EASY" for our taxdollar PAID public SERVANTS!!!!!!! REALLY!!!!!! This is the kind of BS that is RUINING OUR COUNTRY!!!!!!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE I JUST READ THIS!!!!!!! Our Agents are PAID to know this stuff!!!!! So, How many of those Violators were actually cited and CONVICTED? ? That's the TRUE QUESTION...... With over 330 species in nine genera, all in the family Cambaridae, I doubt the average biologist could distinguish the four species that are legal from some of the others. Robert has said that the crayfish producers can't distinguish the juveniles. The bait opperators claimed they did not know what species they had. Law enforcement officers are paid to enforce laws, they are trained some what in what the laws are; they are not trained intensively in biology, mammalolgy, zoology, limnology or marine biology. LEOs are not responsible for convictions that is the prosecuters job. The law, as it is, is esentially unenforcable; so in effect it is no law. Throw this non-law away and give the LEOs a simple, easy to understand law that they at least have a chance to enforce. An ecosystem, like a brain, is a terrible thing to waste. When there are no more fish I guess we might all stand up and yell "those no good policemen caused this", but that will not bring the fish back. Extinct is gone. |
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Goodbye 2020